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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:15 pm 
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Hi all - Welcome to the official DVDInfoPro 3.0 Beta thread

Within you will find all the resources, scans and current build commentary that is being worked on by beta testers for NicW's upcoming release.

The intention is for you, the beta-tester and/or viewers to provide feedback, to make this the best possible application it can be!

Now - a shot of the new command level interface:

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So far, the enthusiasm from everybody posting and contributing has been wonderful! Keep up the great work. You are actively making the software better with every bit of feedback you provide. :D

A commentary on Jitter Analysis Implementation will follow.


Last edited by zebraC on Sun May 16, 2004 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:20 pm 
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zebraC,

can you say what media you've used for this test?

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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:23 pm 
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It was a 3a DVD+R 4x burned in a DDW-081 using BX30 FW


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 PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:32 pm 
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Ah, thanks for the info.

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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:02 am 
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No probs....

I don't think people fully understand how significant jitter analysis is.....


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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:12 am 
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I for one sure don't. If you have some information on this, don't hesitate to post or link to it. The last time I was worried about jitter was when I was starting to do CDDA extraction ages ago, and drives were not able to correct jitter then (I think I was using one of these infamous Mistumi 8x drives).

Is that the same jitter we are talking about here (a.k.a. the ability of the drive to pick continuous sectors on the disc between 2 reads)?

And what good is it to have jitter analysis for the end user? Can it help us make more efficient burns?

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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:29 am 
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Hi >NIL.

Well, I am not totally familiar with this either. I am aware that it is something that is used in industrial opto-electronics testing facilities however. To me, this would seem significant that a "home user" might be able to exact such a benchmark on their drives.

I have compiled some info on the concept...

Pit geometry and Jitter can be measured by looking at the HF signal coming from the pickup. The HF (High Frequency) signal coming from the pickup represents the light intensity of the beam reflected back from the disc surface. A higher voltage represents greater light intensity, and a lower voltage represents less light. The signal is rapidly changing between light and dark as the beam passes over the pits. When the beam is over a pit, the light intensity is reduced. When the beam is between pits (over "land"), the light intensity is higher. Data is encoded in the transitions between pits and lands.

The waveform shown below shows "Jitter" as regenerated from an optical disk. "Jitter" values and limits are specified in CD-ROM and DVD published industry standards. Jitter is made up primarily of two phenomena. One is the measurement of the time difference between the data and clock and the other is the measurement of pulse width (pulse cycle measurement for Magnetic Optical drives). The pulse width measurement is used to evaluate disk media.

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Because the oscilloscope is triggered by the signal itself, we can see the jitter in the different pit lengths (such as 3T, 4T


Last edited by zebraC on Sun May 02, 2004 4:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:58 pm 
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Wow, superb info, zebraC!! 8-)

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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 1:03 pm 
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That's one of the most excellent posts I have seen in a long time here. Big thanks for digesting all this information and relaying it to us. 8-)

So basically jitter is a measurement of the variations of the time to trigger point, and indeed, it's probably the most interesting value you want to get: the further away your trigger points are spread from nominal value, the more [*Profanity*] your readout is. This is a good indication on how properly your land/pits are formed, how accurately aligned or even how clean your head is (if your head is dirty, your intensity value decreases and the trigger points will be late).

Now, what I really wonder is:
- How do drives manage to measure jitter?
- Do all drives have a jitter measurement unit?

I think that all DVD units have ways of re-synchronizing their bit clock (feedback) on the maximum value of the jitter gaussian curve. That's definitely the point where you want to synchronize your clock, and this is where NRZI encoding comes handy for the binary data that ends up on the surface on the disk, as it provides excellent synchronization marks.

So there's probably some circuitry there for clock synchronization that is already (kinda) able to isolate the jitter, but I would think that this is analog electronics and not digital.

To read the jitter value described above numericaly, with a +/- 0.5% error, you'd need a clock that is 100 times faster than the bit clock.

I hope my values are right, but I seem to remember that for 1x speed, the bit clock is about 30 MHz, so at 16x (we're talking about reading here) the clock is about 500 MHz and to get an acurate measurement of the jitter you would then need an A/D converter running at 50 GHz.
That's pretty fast, and probably pretty expensive if it's just meant to be used to read the jitter value, so I really wonder where the drive gets its jitter value from.

A more simpler way would be to read the peak intensity of the gaussian, and apply some kind of algorithm to deduce the probable jitter value.

Maybe nicw has more information about this...

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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 1:34 pm 
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Hrrrrm. No worries, however, without nicW, none of this would be happening full steam ahead. We are working on this concurrently.

Concerning specifics....

More information will flow as it happens...


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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 3:41 pm 
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Thanks for posting the graph image and for the free lesson Professor Zebra :D
I may have to pick up an NU drive for myself... :o

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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 3:46 pm 
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This is a Nu thing then?

Just after I bought an Optorite as well.... :roll:

Still, I'd probably be able to sell it for what I paid for it, so all is not lost :)

The PIPO readings are enough to make this worthwhile if the software is by donation rather than costing $100 (as in the case of the Optorite :evil: ) and with the Jitter tests as well this is a must-have really.

Thanks NicW!! :D


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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:49 pm 
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Before everyone starts lining up to pat NicW on the back, he is only implimenting what has been "given" to him by NuTech.
CDSpeed will soon have the same functions and tests available as well.

KProbe2 has ADER/ATER testing which is also very usefull in determining laser focus and/or servo problems on a LiteOn burner.

These three measurements: PI/PO / ADER / Jitter, pretty much cover all aspects of the quality of the burned disc. There have been many discussions and arguments about the relative value of Jitter testing, some say it has no real value, others say it does. I leave that argument to those more learned than I.

The real news here is that another drive maker has implemented PI/PO measurement, and others may follow. I'm putting my money on CDSpeed to offer the best tool for use with the NuTech burners.


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 PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 12:09 am 
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rdgrimes wrote:
...I leave that argument to those more learned than I.


agreed
cheers
NicW


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 PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 12:27 am 
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rdgrimes wrote:
Before everyone starts lining up to pat NicW on the back, he is only implimenting what has been "given" to him by NuTech.
CDSpeed will soon have the same functions and tests available as well..
I would rather say that Nic Wilson has contributed a lot towards NuTech to enable them to add this facility to their drives and they should be paying him for his contribution. Others that are following on from this are only duplicating something that was originaly Nic Wilson's ideas

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 PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 12:43 am 
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Yes, this is an exciting new feature, my hats off to Nu Tech and those who bring mew features to the user, but this thread does not need to be filled with argument.

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 PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 1:12 am 
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Ok - a little more information,

The delay in getting the Nu tools out is due to a bug in the firmware that has been found. Yes, Nu are working on it. ^_^

If the drive has trouble tracking the disc, the returned "current address" value becomes invalid, making it difficult for the application to follow where it is. Work arounds? Well, doing another wobbleseek can assist but can cause the drive to end up in a hung state. This is being worked on with them also.

Work is being carried out in changing both the app and then, getting Nu to change the firmware so this does not occur. Seems to happen on very bad media only. A suitable workaround for current firmwares is being designed. :D


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 PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 3:02 pm 
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Another shot of the work in progress.

Image

If anybody has general GUI suggestions or usability considerations or otherwise, please email NicW directly on this one....and help make it as good as it can possibly be.

8-)


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 PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 4:36 pm 
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zebraC wrote:
Ok - a little more information,

The delay in getting the Nu tools out is due to a bug in the firmware that has been found. Yes, Nu are working on it. ^_^

If the drive has trouble tracking the disc, the returned "current address" value becomes invalid, making it difficult for the application to follow where it is. Work arounds? Well, doing another wobbleseek can assist but can cause the drive to end up in a hung state. This is being worked on with them also.

Work is being carried out in changing both the app and then, getting Nu to change the firmware so this does not occur. Seems to happen on very bad media only. A suitable workaround for current firmwares is being designed. :D


Just a dum question ;)

What type of drives will be supported? All? Only recorders?
I would love to see the PI/PO on a normal toshiba DVDROM drive!

Thanks in advance,

FJorgeR.


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 PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 6:30 pm 
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As nicw posted here, the following drives support this feature:
  1. SDR-081
  2. SDR-083
  3. SBW-241
  4. SBW-242
  5. DDW-081
  6. DDW-082
  7. SDW-041

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 PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 10:46 pm 
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That graph needs a scale and a legend.


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 PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2004 4:27 am 
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I think it's important for us net dwellers to respect conventions, and provide references wherever applicable, particularly for blockquotes.
http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Specific.asp?ArticleHeadline=Writing+Quality&index=14
http://www.pioneer.co.jp/crdl/tech/dvd/2-2-e.html

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 PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2004 12:58 am 
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pchilson wrote:
That graph needs a scale and a legend.


Thanks that is all planned, and some has already occurred which you wil see a shot of later today. Its just little old me doing it in between work. There is just so much to do and such a small time window to do it. Zeb will keep you posted on my progress.

Keep the suggestions coming though, they are all appreciated and considered.

cheers
NicW


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 PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2004 6:41 am 
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Ok - thanks for the feedback so far! Great to see people getting behind the development effort!

The latest iteration:

Media Analysis: On scan implemented :-D


Image

Now, some information concerning the UI:

These new "LED" lights are active, if you click them, they turn on and off. With relation to this, they turn corresponding graph on and off.

Also note, that all this can all be done on the fly, graph on off and scaling, the graph updates instantly...in real time.

"As Line" switches convert from the line graph to a block graph (similar to kprobe in this respect).

The Jitter Scale is added.

Others will be added over next few days. The other values listed have already been described. Keep the comments/suggestions etc coming in. Its helping out a great deal.


Last edited by zebraC on Mon May 03, 2004 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2004 1:27 pm 
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ZebraC wrote:
"As Line" switches convert from the line graph to a block graph (similar to kprobe in this respect).

Can you post a screenie of the "block graph" ?
Also, does the "real time" affect results?


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